A(n) Enjoyable Open Discussion

I have been engaged in an argument/discussion of sorts with a few friends who have differing beliefs than I do and I have really enjoyed it both for it's substance as well as it's openness and the respect all parties grant one another. I am going to post the discussion in it's entirety as it has flowed thus far and would encourage more discussion to emerge here if people so please. B will stand for me and J and T will stand for my friends with the opposing views to my own.

J:
i know it probably wont convince any of you, but i am going to put my two cents into this homosexuality and christianity discussion. I’m not here to argue that it is a risky issue. just to clear a few issues.

for the people who think that homosexuality was only spoken against in the old testament, here is a verse in the new that talks about it. It is from paul’s letter to the romans. (romans 1:21 to 1:27) It says that man did not acknowledge God as God, so God let them do their own things. They gave into the sins of the flesh, women having unnatural relations with women, and men performing indecent acts with other men.

now it is important to not that this classifies homosexuality under lusts and sins of the flesh, not as a biological determining factor. i know people claim to have been gay since they were born, but there are also people who have wanted to look at pornography since the day they knew what sex was, and people who steal without thinking anything of it since they dont hurt anyone or get caught. It is just another part of our sinful nature. Your right they may have been born with those tendencies, but that is because man is naturally sinful since the fall.

this leads me to believe that homosexuality is a day by day, moment by moment decision to do right, just like any other sin. You could choose being a thief or a murderer or an adulterer for your lifestyle as well, but you still have the moment by moment decision to do the right thing.

I am not damning gay people any more that any other sinners, but i am saying that acting on homosexual tendencies is a sin. Fact of the matter is we are all sinners, and all worthy of hell, the same as the rest. fortunately, as you all know, i believe Jesus used some handy loving to break that.

the second thing i wanted to address quickly on here is just the point raised earlier about old testament validity. There are certain laws of the old testament that are not applicable now, and there are some that are. the question of “how is it alright for christians to pick and choose what rules they want to keep” has been raised. here is what i believe it comes down to. Christ directly pointed out which laws He wanted to change. The rest i believe stay intact. In the bible it talks about an old covenant and the new covenant, and Christ specifically identifies what parts are changed. essentially the rules about food, the rules about revenge, and the rules about punishment are the ones that are changed.

I am not one of those Christians who is going to tell you all to shut up and quit attacking my beliefs. I actually would much rather hear different people’s questions on things, because i have wondered many of these things myself before, and thankfully through asking have gotten some stuff cleared up. I dont have every answer, but feel free to quiz me, and i can try my hardest to explain my views, and as opposed to many “christians”, i will base my answers off of the bible (the WHOLE bible), instead of what some other person taught me.

hopefully that cleared a few things up.

B:
FIRST OFF What’s with this odd re-blogging to comment thing?

This is an issue close to my heart as I’ve got a lot of pals who cannot marry, or live their lives as openly as heterosexuals can because of these beliefs and beliefs like it. So I will continue the questioning.

If God disapproves of homosexuality, why is that? I don’t think God is free from the need to have justification for his actions so for what reason does he find homosexuality sinful. If you look at it from a historical perspective, homosexuals did not reproduce. In a time when having lots of children was essential for your culture to spread and survive, I could understand the “interpreters of god’s word” claiming homosexuality was sinful. As for today, I don’t see it harming anyone, and it certainly helps more people find loving relationships.

You mention that Jesus came through and made a new set of covenants that supersede the old testament, well Mohamed came through and the Qur’an claims to supersede the new testament’s covenant and rules. Why do you choose the bible and not the Qur’an? What make Jesus more credible of a messiah than Mohamed? It seems Islam is the newest thing out there, so maybe we should all jump on that boat.

Also this idea of the sinfulness in sexual urges. Human’s have biologically and mentally evolved to find that procreation is good for the species. It’s in our blood to want sex. Why would we have that in us if we have to feel guilty for it at all times. That’s like training a dog to sit, and then yelling at him every time he sits.

T:
I’m pretty done with tumblr debates, but there are just a couple questions of yours I want to answer.

1) My knowledge of Islam is EXTREMELY limited, but I’m fairly certain Mohamed never claimed to be the Messiah. Merely a prophet. I could be wrong, but all I’ve ever heard about Mohamed is that he’s the “high prophet of Allah” or something along those lines. Logically, I’d rather listen to what God Himself has to say than His servant who comes along and contradicts what His master says. Comparable to listening to the owner of the company, instead of his secretary who tells you something different afterward. But that’s just logically. I’ve seen truth in the teachings of Christ, and I’ve seen the truth of Christ carried out, tangibly, healings and miraculous works in the name of Christ. You may be skeptical, but I need no other proof.

2) Sex isn’t a bad thing. God created it, God intended it to be good, God intended us to want to have sex. But we have an enemy, he wants to destroy us, and he has perverted it (all this talk of God’s wrath and God’s judgment and all of these bad things being from God, we seem to forget that there’s an evil part of this equation, too). I mean, I really hope you wouldn’t argue the fact that twelve year olds having sex is not okay, because, “they’re just programmed to do it.” Even from a totally worldly standpoint, sex shouldn’t be taken lightly. No, God didn’t make sex a bad thing. The world did. Look at the products of sex in our current society. All of these diseases being passed from person to person, all of the babies that are growing up in unstable and sometimes dangerous homes, all of the girls whose lives and self esteem are ruined by guys who just wanted to get some tail, HUMAN BEINGS being kidnapped and trafficked because some sicko somewhere knows that people will pay for sex, and he can prophet from it. But that’s all okay because we’re wired as humans to want it? But then look at sex as God intended it, the way He created it. Just sayin.

Also, a question that I don’t really have an answer for: why does God think homosexuality is sinful? I don’t know. But if you look into the scriptures Jordan mentioned a bit more, Romans 1:26-27 says: “For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones, and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another….” Looking a bit more into it, “…exchanged the natural sexual relations…abandoned natural relations…” Going off this, I would guess that God sees it as sinful because that’s not how we were created. We were intended for relationships between man and woman. “But Tyler, if we aren’t supposed to be gay, why didn’t God just totally eliminate homosexuality?” Sexuality has been perverted, as I’ve already mentioned. “But it’s not a choice, you’re born that way!” We’re born with all kinds of desires. We have desires to lie to get out of trouble, we desire to steal what we can’t have, we desire sex outside of what God intended for it, because we’re born sinful.

Like I said earlier, I’m not really here to debate or argue, more to answer your questions.

But I would like to say that if we were just jumping on the newest thing out there, we’d all be scientologists, or worshiping Davey Havok or something.

B:
I’m tired of tumblr debates simply because I am not fond of the reblog system, other than that I think debating and discussing issues like this is one of the most powerful things this medium can be used for and I appreciate it’s existence.

As for Islam, I’ve been reading the Qur’an lately. While Mohamed may not claim to be messiah, he is still claiming to be a more recent prophet than Jesus, also claiming that Jesus was not a messiah, but merely a prominent prophet. The only difference is Mohamed, as far as I know, is not claiming to be a messiah figure that would save people from a hell.

The point is not that he is newer, and therefore better, why don’t we follow him? My point is that he has just as much credibility as Jesus does to his claims. He supposedly performed miracles, he spoke divine truths, he claimed revelations from God. The point is both just have some ancient books written by his followers to say he did these things. Why is one more believable than another? This isn’t a matter of one being a direct correspondent and another a secretary, this is a matter of two people claiming to be direct correspondents, with their claims, and “evidences” to those claims recorded in ancient texts written by their supporters.

As for sex is not a bad thing. I agree. Of course I don’t think children should be having sex, that’s preposterous. Maybe when they wrote that sex outside of marriage was a SIN, it was because they knew there were all these diseases, or so that it would be easier to tell paternity of a child. They were thinking of ways to have safe sex. Well I don’t need a God to tell me to have safe sex. Science can inform me far better.

This whole idea of a Satan though. Think about it. It all makes a wonderful story but why would God, being as omnipotent as he is not just make things all good? I get that challenges and all that are a fun idea, but really it just works into this grand narrative structure we like to apply to all of our lives. Give me one good reason God wouldn’t eliminate Satan, or prevent his creation in the first place, or make his presence fully known to us, or work in mysterious ways? Why would a God do such a thing to merely complicate things? Say I were to give you omnipotence, omnibenevolence, and omniscience. Would you set up things in the same manner?

Finally the homosexuality. Saying Homosexuality is sinful because that’s not how we were created sets me off at the bat, simply because I don’t believe we were just created, but that’s a separate argument. Once again you have to look at the historical context of why someone would write that at the time. Anything that prevented procreation was considered bad. Homosexuals don’t reproduce so they were deemed bad. Nowadays, we have plenty of people, really could use a little less population wise, so if two men or two women want to love each other and share their lives together, what’s the harm in it?

Take anything from a scientific or historic standpoint and it just makes so much more sense, not delusions need to be created to support a belief system.

Do you need God to tell you that murder is bad? I certainly hope not.

Can I see what is good and what is bad for the world, without a God telling me directly? Yeah I can.

Do I see homosexual’s doing anything remotely negative to the world? No.

What irks me the most, and I know none of the people I am talking with do this, but it’s that Religious activists will go out and try to deny gay people rights. They will fight against someone else’s rights, but you never see gay people going out and fighting against your right to worship you god, or believe what you believe. Can you imagine if Christians were the minority, and there were a larger belief system out there campaigning against your right to live your life the way you do? Put yourself in a gay person’s position and really think about what you are saying.

It’s not love to say one thing but believe another. I refuse to live in a world where people who don’t believe in your sin, are subject to your fear of it.

T:
Reblogging would probably go smoother if you put the reblogs at the bottom like everyone else, haha.

Anyway, short answers.

God created both men and angels in His image (which is goodness at it’s absolute purest state), and that includes free will. Everything which God created good was perverted by an angel who got a big head and thought he could do it better.

Simply practicing safe sex solves maybe half of the problems I listed. Following God’s plan would solve all of them.

Like I said, I believe in Jesus Christ because I’ve tangibly seen His promises fulfilled. No delusions. Seek Christ and I guarantee you’ll see His truth. This is why I have no desire to even consider Mohamed as a spiritual leader.

On the other hand, you could look at it historically from a different perspective, and think that maybe men were writing God breathed words that are intended to lead and teach generations to come, and God’s reasonings for what He considers unrighteous are far beyond our painfully limited human understanding. But alas, our debate seems to be at a dead end. You don’t believe the same as I do, and so my points based on my beliefs mean nothing to you. I guess that’s how all of these are going to have to end.

B:
Haha, thanks for the tip on re-blogging correctly. I am actually beginning to see the benefit in this comment system because it contains the entire discussion in one long feed.

I don’t think the debate is over. Usually I would say, “yes, we seem to have hit a brick wall, we will have to agree to disagree.” If this were merely a matter of disagreement I would do that. However I think this is a more pressing matter in that many that follow the beliefs you propose are attempting to force actions of those beliefs and people who don’t believe them. Like myself. Just as you have the right to vote against gay marriage, or the teaching of evolution in schools, and to go out and attempt to convince people of your way of thinking, I have the same right to vote against those things, and attempt to convince people of my way of thinking. I’d imagine you’d agree with me on that.

What frustrates me most in this regard are two things.

One: The United States of America is supposed to be a secular state, yet so many of it decisions that are made, denying certain people rights, or weakening the teaching of science in our public school system are based on non-secular beliefs. I understand that Christianity makes up the vast majority of the country, and it just makes sense that their vote would often win but I ask that you put yourself in my position. Imagine living in a country where Islam is the primary religion, and Christians are the minority. I imagine you would be frustrated because so often what you believed was entirely correct, according to your beliefs would be out-voted by the Islamic voting community. You’d live in a world where you may be forced to live by Islamic beliefs.

That is similar to the situation I, and others who have similar beliefs, are in in the United States. Though I do not believe in your sin, so many political decisions are based around a Christian fear of it. In my perspective this is holding us back as a human species.

Two: We both realize that we believe what we believe extremely strongly. I think I am right, and you think you are right as strongly as I do. My frustration is not in this, it is in the idea that the entirety of your belief system is based around an ancient text, written by people you have no reason to believe were divinely inspired other than the fact that they say they were. This is a feat any group of people could achieve given hard work and good writing skills. My beliefs are based on the things I see around me, quantifiable evidence, logical thought chains, and human understanding. If you wish for me to show you why I think evolution exists, I can reference you to thousands of experts who have studied it their entire lives, genetic mapping that shows strong signs of it, archaeological evidence, thousands of books and hundreds of other pieces of evidence. If I ask you to tell my why you don’t think it exists, you’ve got one ancient text written in a time when people did not possess the technological advancement to conceive of such a thing as evolution. I’m going to say, “ok, neat, what else you got?”

That all aside, you say you have had experiences that you consider divine. I was a strong believer in much of what you believe for a period in my life too. I went to Jamaica, did a missions trip, praised the lord in large signing groups on mountaintops, and I too had experiences that I believed divine. Now I realize the power of the human mind to delude itself. From a psychological standpoint it makes sense. The human mind can create amazing things, and if you are a believer in the divine, they will often be attributed to the divine.

I guarantee you there are millions of Muslims out there, Jews out there, who also believe, as strongly as you do, that they have experienced divine moments or seen promises fulfilled at the bequest of their deity. I guarantee you there are people out there who pray to Satan, or meditate in Scientological methods who believe they have experienced the divine or seen promises fulfilled at the hands of their deity as well. I don’t know if you would claim your experiences as more real than theirs, but I imagine if you did, they would claim there experiences as more real than yours. They are people, capable of experiencing the world around them just as you are. If you are saying your god is the one true god, are you saying their experiences did not happen? Heck, I have had meditative experiences where I simply explore my mind that in my former days, I would claim were divine. And I know that you may say, “Well that’s my God, reaching out to them, because he loves all humanity” or something of that sort. But if every religion claims the exact same thing, and none of them have anything beside a divine book telling them they are correct, how can you rightfully evidence, that yours, in fact, is more correct? I pray for a man to be cured to Zeus, and you pray to the Christian God. If the man is cured I have just as strong of an argument that it was Zeus that cured him as you do God. But a Doctor is going to tell you different, probably attributing it to care, a positive attitude (possibly aided by the well wishes or people praying for him) and to medicine.

For the Historical Perspective, I would most definitely agree with you that Christianity was probably started by a lot of people who wanted to do good in the world, and were interpreting the world to the best of their ability at the time. I would disagree that the words were god breathed, but I don’t, as many atheistic people do, believe that the men starting Christianity had anything ill-will and power in mind.

Now to the thing that I believe is at the core of this whole thing. “…and God’s reasonings for what He considers unrighteous are far beyond our painfully limited human understanding.” Human understanding is an amazing, expansive, and ever growing thing. In the early ages of civilization people saw thunder, and prayed to a lightning god to get it to go away, people didn’t get rain, so they prayed to a rain god. Nowadays we understand both thunder and weather as an extremely complex system that can be predicted, and sometimes even altered. Human understanding has come all the way from fearing any noise outside our cave at night as a demon, to understanding subatomic particles, the vastness of the universe, complex biological systems and delved into the human psyche. The most wondrous things about human understanding and discovery are that it is non-judgmental, entirely in search of the truth, and expanding faster and faster every day. Just look at the things we have discovered in the past 100 years. Imagine what we will understand in the next 100. Gods originated as a way for humans to cope with things they did not understand, and while now we don’t understand everything, we have learned that through scientific process, open inquiry and non-judgmental exploration we can understand things we didn’t used to. The people 2000 or so years ago wrote the bible to let the world know how they understood things, nowadays we have so many more ways to understand the world, why not write a new book? (I mean this metaphorically)

Yeah, it’s a scary thing to let go of a lot of your beliefs, and explore a new thing openly, I went through it, but it’s such a more fulfilling life and search. I’m not even saying that a God doesn’t exist, simply saying an unknown exists, and that I plan to explore that unknown to get us closer to figuring out if some of it consists of a god, or if it doesn’t.

I’ll leave you with one of my favorite quotes, from one of my favorite books Atlas Shrugged ( I enjoyed the book, but by no means follow all of it’s objectionist propositions.)

By suspending your judgement, you are negating your person. When a man declares: ‘Who am I to know?’ -he is declaring: ‘Who am I to live?’

(quotes are funny right? The author of this book has no more authority on living than I do, yet I find truth in much of what she says and decide to quote her)

Also I am glad we are able to have this discussion in such a respectable fashion and thank you for both your thoughtful responses and tolerance of my persistence.







So far I've got the last word in, but I will continue to add on any further discussion.